Graphic analysis "Horizon":

For our draughtsfriends with the French language, feel free to use your
language if you are not familiar with English, so you can discuss with us
the games.

A l'attention des joueurs francophones : Nous vous invitons a poster vos
messages en langue francaise si vous ne maitrisez pas totalement la langue
anglaise. Nous serons ravis de partager vos commentaries.

For our Dutch spectators. You can get a computer translation at http://nl.babelfish.yahoo.com/. Just paste the text and choose languages.

And maybe Vladimir can give a link for translation English to Russian language by a computer 

As far as I am concerned I appreciate very much all english comments. I use Damy as an help for analysis but I did not make any comment so far because I do not want to inhibit pure human comments during such live session.
Thank you to continue to make your comments in english (if you can).

Google Translate
http://translate.google.com

OK, Horizon is working again. And can't handle 10 moves in 2 minutes. This will take a few minutes to be in sync again.  

Congratulations to KNDB for very nice organization. Thousand brazilians are watching this match directly from the Brazilian Federation site because we included an inframe of this page inside our site. Today, for sure, we will see another good and beautiful game. Lélio Marcos

Another constructive game in the making.Congratulation to the KNDB for showing the world how beautiful the  game of draughts really is.

For the fourth time a Keller and for the second time a variation. So  maybe good changes for Schwarzman as in the other 3 games 

Yes, this job is highly commendable...this is also being watched live by dama enthuasists in the philippines...

is it an idea that a strong player comments in this room the game. 
He can lead the spectators through the game and comment their remarks. When every spectator pays a little contribution for this sportif service, everybody should be still more satisfied. groeneveld

This time a very interesting try for Georgiev

Im not a master but what we see here is a miracle or a disaster. Georgiev playing all or nothing. He wants to make the formation 15,20,25, and with creating enough tempo's, try to lure black go forward.

Unbelievable! Yesterday I asked myself the question: Wil Georgiev play 1.33-29 going for a Keller for the fourth time? Or is it time to play 1.33-29 17-22 2.31-26 now? But Georgiev attempts to play the same variation in which he was nearly defeated by Schwarzman in the sixth game... 

23...1419 was nessesary.now 24.2420 1014  25.3934,black s left wing is completly out

I'm absolutely sure that Georgiev won't create that awful triangle:)

Why awful? We all(?) remember the historical game Roozenburg-Sijbrands, where white amost defeated Sijbrands with the same strategy.

Pitty.

In this particular situation this triangle seemed to be a great weakness. Btw, could give a link for the game "rozenburg-sejbrands", must be very intresting

Christian refers to this game Roozenburg - Sijbrands NLD-ch 1967. After 41...17-22? Roozenburg proved that pieces 30 / 35 are still active. Should have played 18-22 after which 38-33 42-38 fails!

Georgiev, what do you do to make a living?
 "My profession is escaping from seemingly hopeless situations. "

many thanks..

truus gives black +0.42 after 34-30

Mr Tjalling, you are simply wonderful. Thanks for the question to Georgiev and the answer. I like the way you animate the comment column. Keep up!

At least Georgiev is playing quickly today. He saves his time to find the draw later on. Schwarzman will use all his time to try and find the win. 

A link for the whole game, Roozenburg-Sijbrands:
Toernooibase

@ Dieudonné Ningpah Thanks pal!

Schwarzman has to make a vital decision now. Will he close 22, playing 17-22 like in Van der Kooij - Meijer NLD-ch 2008? White can go to 31 in that case.
The alternative, more conservative approach is to keep <22> opened en build the 16 / 21/ 26 / 27 fork combined with a strong centre. 

I hope for 17-22!  

Tjalling has characterised Georgiev's games (so far played) nicely. Georgiev does not seem to be inspired in the slightest to try and win a game. Perhaps he is simply waiting to show his real intentions in the rapid and blitz games. Things are getting a bit monotonous.

The white strategy is to provoke black forwards. The problem is to findenough tempo's on the right side, without weakening the defence on the left. Till now he he has not even touched piece 41. This reminds me of the radical ideas from Bert Raven, the dutch master, who wanted to delay the move 41-37 as long as possible.

This time Georgiev may get chances. Schwarzman spent too much time playing 14-19. This type of Keller seems to give white more possibilities than the former ones.

Christian, you are right, the idea of not playing 41-37 (until black plays 17-22, then you do play 41-37 followed by 37-31x31) was executed several times by the gifted Bert Raven. In NLD-ch 2008 Hein Meijer introduced the idea (agianst vd Kooij) to play 17-22 allowing white to play 41-37-31x31. Probably Schwarzman won't do this.

Wim van der Kooij in 'Dammen' also recommended to wait with 41-37 as long as possible. If I remember correctly.

To Lex Mulder: "Georgiev is not interested in winning" , If this game is not an example of trying to win with white,  you tell me what Georgiev has to do otherwise!

After 29.41-37
I do not quite understand (I am not a GMI!) why you consider that black position is better. White controles right wings with 15,30,33 and it seems a struggle begins for controling 31. Black center is impressive but it is not that easy to progress

It is played like Tjalling predicted. The problem now for Georgiev is that 30. 37-31 can be answered with 22-28

After 30:37-31x31 black can play 22-28 and he breaks free with advantage. This means white has to play something else and make a difficult decision.

We are lucky today.

Black is on +8, which probably is a slight advantage somewhere, Georgiev however still seems to be very confident about what to do, he hardly takes any time for his moves. I think 30. 43-38 was a good alternative for 37-31.

After 30:.. 3-9 follows 49-43. White has the last tempo, which means that black cannot keep the exchange 22-28 (after 37-31) in the position. Therefore he may decide now, otherwise he would have to do it a move later anyway.

Flits suggests 31. 30-24. Although I would probably prefer 31. 33-29 myself.

Kolk is in tha House and suggesting 37-31. I myself would play 33-29 first! 
Well, 37-31 played, now after 23-28 the 33-29 move isn't possible anymore, a bit careless of Georgiev 

31. 37-31 ? maeby 31.30-25 after 19-24 47-41 8-12 37-31 26x37 41x21 17x26 34-29 23xxx32 33-29 24x33 42-38 33x42 48xxxxxx10

Schwarzman didn't waste any time by playing 32:23-28, which prevents 33-29

good afternoon. I prefer to comment without consulting my computer but I don't have turbo base and the last suggested move 49-43 in stead of the normally played 48-43 which now is in contradict with the possiblity 47-41 (23-28) 30-25-20 37-31 (26x37) WHICH ONCE schwarzman took against Vad (VAD-TDV) everything has changed now (draughts on its best , you-re right Oudshoorn    

I think Georgiev might have another surprise coming up, cause he will of course have been well aware that 33. 33-29 would be prevented by 23-28, so I wonder what he will come up with in the next few moves.

Don't these people make mistake every once in a while?

White has plenty of moves to wait: 32. 49-44-40-35. 
To prevent 33-29 will be difficult without making concessions. 

Bert Z

I was away from the computer, here is my delayed response.
Christian, Georgiev should abandon his very passive approach to the games, try to take the initiative, and not provide his opponent with the opportunity to run him over!

Preparing the strong 17-21 (31-26 27-32!) move going to <32>  ! But 8-12 played, supposedly to play 17-21 31-26 3-8.

And so Georgiev again is contributing to Schwarzmans frustration (by letting him know that 33-29 will eventually follow). @ Waardenburg: they seem to be making mistakes according to previous analysis but not many and when one makes a mistake the other has to recognize the mistake and take advantage of it. Draughts is a game for perfectionists. That's why Ton Sijbrands is the top.

I was wondering about the situation after 33. 47-42 (8-12)31-26(11-16)46-41(3-8)41-37(17-21)26x17(12x21)37-31 as well...

Lex, I think you have a point but today is not an appropriate day to make it, since today Georgiev is making the effort.

To Lex: My perception is different but lets enjoy the current game!

The half hour time advantage of Georgiev has disappeared.

In the situation I suggested, black can play (28-32:)

Christian, I am with you, enjoying the game. I prefer black's game, but I am a Georgiev fan!

I still can't use my computer for my wife is emailing. God blesses her for now she forces me to think by mysef with I seem to have forgotten - Jan impression; I don't believe Georgiev can continue his strategy of encirclement

35....17-21 seems a proposal for a draw by 36 31-26 03-08 x x 36-31 x 47-41 x 38-32 etc.
I expected 35...28-32

35.40-35.
An idea seems to be also:35.31-26 3-8 and 36.47-41, for black cannot do 17-21 etc in that position

36. 31-26  12-17 not 3-8? 26x17 12x21 36-31 27x36 47-41 36x47 38-32 47xx45 32xxx3 32-26 3x25

36... 3-8 26x17 12x21 will be answered by 36-31 47-41 38-32 = so black plays 12-17! with advantage for black. Great game today!

Now all black advantage seems to have disappeared

It seems clear that Georgiev can only hope for an escape again! After the 50th move the battle probably will not be over yet! 
The advanatge of black consists of having more space to play and a lead in developement.

yes a possible victory for black when he keeps white right wing out of action - Jan

Georgiev paly against Shwarzman \
like Chelsea against Barselona
not seems good
but do his work

It seems to me that 39. .. 17-21!? was played with safety first again.

after 19-23, 15-10 probably wins. 39-33 and 3024 is also possible after other moves

I don't have the feeling there are so much problems for white at the moment. Even the tempi are level again.

hard doorgefietst, en nu dit zien! hallo allen!

Georgiev seems te be cruising towards his next draw. He is making Schwarzman mentally and physically more and more tired. An easy prey for Georgiev in the blitz games.

Lets hope I'm wrong!

White has to fight for survival guys, are you nuts?

The only fight for survival that I see that white really has is to make 3 more moves in 5m55s

I think white has some problems. He can't handle 32 well, for exapmle: 47.41-37 xx and black has full control on the left wing of white. He has the control on field 27, wich is important in games whit piece 25.

hallo Koos, zag je naam bij de jeugdspelers sneldammen (TDV site) met blauwdruk als zijnde brabander, lijkt me niet zo. maar ja denk niet dat deze partij georgiev zo'n deugd zal doen alhoewel hij wel goed zal zijn in  sneldammen. schwarzman overigens ook hoor! - Jan

Christian, white's defence at the left side of the board is pretty solid, 41-37 is always avalable

@ Jan, oke dat kan.

Koos nog vrij gekregen van je leraar wiskunde?

@Lex, 41-37 is played. I think Schwarzman has some advantage, like i said.

jep. alleen broertje zat erachter.

For me 43.46-41 was rather a strange move that gives now a clear advantage to black

Its about 29,30 and 15 they can become weak agains 4 and 14 whatever happens on the other side. 3 is also very important

I agree with Christian. Schwarzman showed to be the best player so far. For me he's the favorite int he rapid games. No mentaly bullshit please.

13-18 now?

Maybe: 51.13-18 52.48-42 18-22! 53.43-39 (or 29-24) 27-31! 54.29-24 (or 43-39)(39-34? 31-36!) 22-27! and white has problems, cause the good pice on field 28!

nice to see that there are 2 supporters-sides
THE Georgiev camp and the Schwarzman camp

i gave ny ideas a few days earlier 

Tjalling, your turn!

I am in favor of both camps. Schwarzman does nothing wrong, be he gives me the impression at some times he can play sharper. In the  Keller game where he missed the winning moves and maybe this one where 30. ... 17 21 is in my view a lazy move.

Chico Baiano duck and litlle girl

Pas op met die wiskundeleraar Tjalling. Straks krijg je Pietje Bouma weer op je dak :)

Koos, after 13-18 43-38 and then?, if 14-19 then 38-33 etc.

acho que as brancas tem tempo a mais.  La em Curitiba isso aí é um aperto de mãos e tchau e benção. O cara foi mijar e até agora não voltou, isso é preocupante.

I like to see a Roozenburg during the next games. It wonders me that both players stick to the Keller. None of them seem to do some research before the game.

After 13-18 48-42 18-22,  47-41 seems better

@lex, maybe 3-8 or something? 48-42 isn't possible cause 27-31!

Flamengo champion  Chico!!

Difficult situation, I think I'll prefer the following: 51.13-18 52.48-42 18-22 53.29-24 3-9 54.42-38! at I can't find a winning black plan.

it seems like white have more time to move. In Curitiba, guys generally love rusian players. Kallisto should beat Chvrtsmann, but georgiev i do not think so. Let's watch,let's watch. i cannnot go to the toilet!    

How strong is this analysis program "Horizon"?
Can we take it as the absolute truth or must we consider both players stronger than the machine?

Tjalling, maybe you know something, most times you're right.

Koos I was taking a lunch break. White's defence seems too solid with pieces 47 / 48.  
The advantage is probably to small to win.

Arjo, I think the players are more trustwortly. In the 6th game Horizon let see something strange, wich wasn't right. Horizon isn't the best program, but is also not weak, mosttimes it is right.

georgiev is visiting the toilet 
he is not for a long time in the picture:-) 
georgiev can once again, not bastions may scharzman (the sole:-)) to tackle! This will 1-1 is again main

According to Damy after 13-18 43-38 it is certainly a draw

@Tjalling, I don't know, white has to play whit 48 sometime, maybe even whit 47. Think the peace on 28 and the flexibility of black (he isn't on 36 but at 27!) may cause some serious problems. Maybe it's not enough.

Acorrding to me 3-9 is now the right move, so white has to make a dissicion (play whit 29,48 or 47)

Plaats Naam van programma Auteur Punten
1 TD King Ton Tillemans (CH) 11
2 Damy Gérard Taille (F) 11
3= KingsRow Ed Gilbert (USA) 10
3= Damage Bert Tuyt (NL) 10
5 Sjende Blyn Jelle Wiersma (NL) 9
6 Tornado Frank Mesander (NL) 8
7 Dam 2.2 Harm Jetten (NL) 7
8 Horizon Feike Boomstra (NL) 5
9 Dream Saïd Koudache (F) 1 

Horizon is not a strong program but his kndb rating will lie somewhere between the 1250 having regard to its Elo

I think 03-09 because you've more defense of his wing, or is that wrong?

Hopelijk levert dit duel eindelijk een winnaar op: voor de niet-dammer lijkt het heel saai, slechte media-aandacht.

In chess we have a few programs outplaying humans completely. How is this in draughts?

after 3-9, then 29-24and we virtually have a forced draw

toch gewoon 14-19 naar remise

3-8   +0.40 truus

Maybe Georgiev should also use more time.

remise, daar moet georgiev tochtevreden mee zijn??hij heeft beter gestaan, 03-09 --> Russiche Wodkatje voor georgiev, morgen beter!

@Lex, and after 3-8 29-24 not then?

Hij heeft me verstaan!!! goed zo Alexander G.

Yeah, I know Arjo, like Rybka.
I guess in draughts computer programs are nearly as strong as world top, like Truus. But Truus often judges this types of positions (I mean the middle game) with surrouding wrongly. In late positions like these calculation does all the work.

53. 3-9 48-42 9-13 38-32 27x38 42x22 18x27 29-23 27-31 37-32 4-10 15x4 14-19 !!!4x36 19x37 36- 22 26-31 22x36 37 -41 =

Schwarzman played 3-9. Georgiev has to investigate some time now!

Nobody knows how strong are computers. My feeling is the following : if the best program does not yet outplay humans then it will be the case before one year.

@guest: after 48-42 18-22 is very good.

He plays 29-24 and say : remise + een wodka? wat schwarzman natuurlijk acepteerd :-)

@Gerard, Look at te site of Ton Tillemans, there is a pagina with the ELO from (all) the computerprograms

I think that Schwarzman is going to win this game!! BUT 3????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can we follow the barrage live?

@Gerben, control your emotion!

@Gerben, whit this type of play georgiev won't win even one game.

48-43??

It is a pity that we only get 12 games and then we go blitz. 12 Games is like a picknick in draughts.
I think they just have to play on untill somebody has won 3 games.
In mean, in the automn of 2011 there probably will be a decision in some game. 
Chess match Karpov - Kasparov was much better. The played on and on and on and then they stopped ... That was a pity too.

@Koos, I've NO Draugthemotion, i am enthousiast!!!!

Yes I know this ELO calcultation but it is made only between computers with the assumption that the average is equal to 2000. There is no reference to human rating

@Arjo, dat klopt, maar je heb wel een soort van "gevoel" dat als een programma een hoge ELO-Rating heeft, het een leuk en sterk programmatje zal zijn!

Georgiev found the draw (one of the..) For example:53.18-22  54.29-24! and after 27-31 55.24-20 14-19 38-32 etc. and after 13-18 55.47-42 13-18 56.25-20 and 24-19.

@Tjalling: Yes, they stopped when finally Kasparov knew how to beat Karpov. Im sure it was also a political decision.

@Rick, op 28-33 kon de plakker 29-23 en zou juist Georgiev winnen.

Plakker Rick! 2923! dat mag een miniwelpje toch niet missen,grapje hoor!

@Gerben: Je bedoelt zeker @Gerard ;-)

k zag het al hoor
had ff verkeerd gekeken
@ gerben
jij bent een miniwelpje

Heren, ik moet weer gaan. Nog huiswerk en dammen vanavond. Veel kijkplezier verder en misschien tot morgen.

Ja, Es tut mir leid!!!

Tjalling,  would you know, I asked the same question as Koos is asking now, could we follow the rapid games live online, would you know? I did not get a response from Feike.

nee hoor rick,maar de benaming miniwelp komt uit de mond van mathias!

@gerben
nou en matthias is er zelf ook een

and 14-19 wint toch

If the Cosmos is willing we will watch all rapid games live at this theatre. How many rapidgames will be needed? 

Stop using non english crap.

I am so sorry VIC

i find 43-39 A stange move

what if Black plays 27-31??

It's gonna be a hell of a job, but we will try to get the rapid-games online in applet.Also the micromatches on sunday if they are needed. (Can anyone predict how many games will be needed in one micromatch?)

yes Lex there's a great possibility that the rapid games can be followed bij live-streaming camera. 55. 27-31 56. 38-32  31x42 57. 32x23 42-48 58. 24-19 will result in a draw. till to-morrow . another escape from georgiev but not planned I suppose - Jan  

What on 27-31 ?

55. 27-31 38-32 31x42 32x23 42-48 24-19 48x01 19x08

@martijn 
38-32

na 27-31 komt 15-10

The rapid and blitz games on saturday will be on livedraughts too. Also the micormatches on sunday (no Horizon analysis). But everybody is cordially invited to come to the TU.

Great Piet!, the rapid games online, fabulous. I hope you'll be succesful.

if black plays 27-31 
I think there will be a possibility to\
see the first win of the wk games

27-31??

55. 27-31 38-32 31x42 32x23 42-48 15-10 x x and we reach draw position of the 7 pieces endgame database

Today we were able to arrange streaming video on saturday and sunday. Together with the live games and all live comments, we expect a spectaculair end of this match.

More in style of Bert would have been 29. 43-38 30. 33-29 and 38-33, 41-37 only when black occupies 21.

i hope to play a lot of Kellers next season (with black ofcourse, everybody seems to think its easy to make a draw with white)

38-33 seems to be the only normal move for the white player.

horizon tells us 47-42,

But what happens when black makes the move 27-32 (38x) 22x31 and whatever white will play you can play 28-32 and 31-37

25-20 14x24 24-19 is a breakthrough for white.

Hey guys what happens if this game draw? is there another one, or one of the players win the championship now? Could somebody tell me that?thanks!!  

65.32-28 36-41 66.28-23 18x29 67.39-33?? 29x38 19-13  41-47 13-8 4-9 is the only way white can lose.

How can psychological interpret this game Bert??

Catamilho the tournament regulations can be found on the website. The match is only decided after three wins. After this game two more regular games. Then Friday a resting day. Saturday 3 rapid games of 20 minutes per person. If then still not a winner (and a minimum of three wins) Saturday 3 blitz games of 10 minutes plus 10 secs per move. It is very well possible that both players at that moment will still be tied. So then Sunday the grand finale with super (or micro) matches. 20 minutes each and within this time as many games are played as necessary to win the micromatch. First decision within each micromatch counts. Maximum of 5 micromatches. I read that the organization will try to broadcast the micromatches as well. Seems like a big logistical and technological challenge but I very much hope they will succeed as these micromatches without doubt will be 'the bomb'.

Hi Catamilho   Tomorrow new game. It´s a match. All games they played until now were draw.

lol .  thank you. i will be here tomorrow so!!!!  

For Brazilian spectators: the next live game will begin wednesday 12.00 hours Enschede time. That is wednesday 07.00 hours in the morning Sao Paulo time and 06.00 hours in the morning Manaus time.
Normally, the game will last between 4 and 6 hours.

Marcel Kosters thanked yesterday a lot of people who contribute to this match and make it possible to see it live.
I would also thank Hendrik Veenstra (designer Oerterp-applet) and Johan Teake Dekker (making it possible to see the Oerterp-applet live) for their contributions.
With their efforts also people with a computer without Java and people with a Mac computer can see the match through Toernooibase (link Livegames)

Flits ad et volgende commentaar: 09. 05-10 (-39) beter is 21-27 37-31 13-19 24x13 08x19 41-37 20-25 46-41 09-13 37-32 11-16 32x21 16x27 41-37 (1)
10. 37-31 (-6) beter is 33-28 22x33!39x19 14x23 38-32 11-16 37-31 07-11 31-27 10-14 42-38 14-19 44-39 19x30 34x14 23x34 (34)

Time for another time!! One and a half hour for 60 moves and then 30 minutes for the rest of the game!